“Probably vodka,” answers Mike Boudet, creator of the award-winning true crime podcast Sword and Scale, when asked what initially fuelled the creation of the popular bi-weekly show followed by thousands of listeners eagerly awaiting a sojourn into a place where the worst monsters are real.
Some might think it only fitting that a podcast that dives so deeply into the darkest parts of humanity laid down roots inside one of the lowest points of its creator’s life.
Bad marriage? Check.
Horrible job? That’s a check.
Alone on his birthday? Another check.
Depressed and drinking on his back patio a few days before Halloween in 2013, Boudet sat wondering where his creativity had gone. He used to be a musician…he used to be a graphic designer. Now he was working a mindless uninspiring job and coming home to an even more dismal personal life.
“I wanted to do something that fed my creativity again, something that gave me that thrill of creating something you're proud of and then letting the world see it for the first time,” says Boudet, explaining that the realization of what that outlet should be came to him that night while drinking. The idea that had been gesticulating...it just needed a couple more drops to sprout.
He’d heard some of the early true crime podcasts and felt that no one was making the type of show he envisioned in his head. He’d dabbled in podcasting before, mainly shows about aliens and UFOs, but was now thinking about how he could combine his love of talk-radio and fascination with the justice system into something unique. Within two months he launched Sword and Scale, putting out the first episode –a decent into the black depths of schizophrenia with author Janice Holly Booth– on January 1st, 2014.
“Selecting true-crime was a no-brainer. It's the purest form of human drama. You can tell so many different types of stories using that medium,” says Boudet.
What sets Sword and Scale apart from some of the other true crime pods is how Boudet goes about telling those stories. As opposed to simply just discussing or analysing a case, he crafts his show into gripping narratives using actual court recordings, 911 calls and integration room audio. It was a technique that quickly amassed an army of loyal listeners. By the end of the 2014, Sword and Scale found itself racking up over a million downloads and landed in a few in iTunes top 10 lists. Like Generation Why, the mainstream popularity of Serial brought even more ears to the show and there’s currently a television show in the works.
In its 117 episodes, Boudet continues to make each show an edge of your seat listen by never sticking to the same format and varying Sword and Scale’s content to reach beyond just a murder of the week. The raw audio is fascinating, disturbing and sometimes not for the faint of heart.
“If I could remove myself completely from a story, and it would serve the story better, I totally would,” says Boudet. “The whole point is that the narrator is the least important part of the story, although many podcast hosts out there don't see it that way because they're egomaniacs.”
Primarily focused on lesser known cases, it’s recommended you steer clear of Google and go into each episode unaware of where it’s going to be taking you. The show often leads listeners down a path with well-placed red herrings only to surprise you in the end with a twist you didn’t see coming. While Boudet’s presentation has been met with some criticism (especially when it has come to the usage of full 911 calls), how the narrative pieces are placed down make Sword and Scale a distant cousin to those old shows that had families huddled around the radio wondering what comes next.
Sword and Scale Host: Mike Boudet # of Episodes: 117 Favourite Episodes: Episode 15 / Episode 60 / Episodes 79 & 80 / Episode 106
How you can help: Support the show’s sponsors like BlueApron. They make cooking fun and easy by providing you with all you need to make a delicious meal in exactly the right proportions. Sword and Scale listeners get three meals free with their first order (promocode: MONSTERS). You can also make a donation to the show here.
Andre Gagne: You've said that you were surprised to find out how much of a fan you were of true crime in pop culture. Why do you feel people are drawn into the darker parts of human nuture?
Mike Boudet: I think we're all fascinated by human nature, partially because we don't truly understand it. There's a whole field of psychological experts that spend years defining bizarre behaviour, but ask one of them to predict if someone will become the next school shooter and they simply can't. There are big grey areas we do not understand no matter how many letters you have at the end of your name. Sometimes we're not even fully aware of what's happening within our own minds, or how things could go wrong without our conscious realization. That idea is both fascinating and terrifying, and I think our listeners appreciate it when we tell stories that highlight not just those anomalies, but how society reacts to them and deals with them.
I admit, while I actually know the names of killers like The Boston Strangler, BTK, Green River Killer, etc., often I don't know the names of the victims. Do you feel society often glorifies these monsters among us way too much?
I don't think it's glorification. Yes, it's a morbid fascination with how a true monster comes into being, but most true crime fans aren't rooting for the bad guy. Most people just want to understand such horrific acts because they seem so foreign and strange, yet they inherently know that evil thoughts can lurk within each and every one of us.
I say "most people" because, of course, there are some exceptions. There are dark corners of the Internet where some very disturbed people do glorify killers. I've seen Tumblr accounts, along with Reddit and 4CHAN threads praising the Columbine shooters. I had one episode where a guest had written a love song to his mass-murdering Internet acquaintance. That kind of behavior disgusts me, but writing about or even reporting on a school shooting isn't "glorification." In fact, if you happen to be a reporter, then it's your job.
You just touched about the web. How do you feel social media has changed the landscape for crime reporting? What about the criminals themselves?
I think it's fascinating. People nowadays seem to live out their whole lives online, posting their every thought. When I was a kid you would keep a diary or journal, and you would keep it secret under lock and key. Now we just put everything out there constantly. So if you kill someone, it's easy for millions of people to go see what you were thinking just minutes beforehand. Some killers put their actual crimes online for all to see. It's such a narcissistic culture nowadays.
Recently, you found yourself in tangled in a web of, well, web slooths. Going through pages on Reddit can be mind-numbing at times, I admit, with so many theories and false leads mixed in with the nuggets of good information. How do you feel web slooths accentuate the true crime community?
(laughs) Some are better than others.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with people who have that morbid curiosity and desire to assist law enforcement in what they perceive as an injustice. But, just like in everything else, righteous indignation and ego can sometimes take over. When someone thinks that they have a better chance of catching a murderer with an internet connection and Facebook account than local law enforcement, then that person has either just uncovered the most corrupt precinct in history or they're having serious delusions of grandeur.
I believe strongly in free speech, but our constitutional protections of it are so broad that they allow rampant defamation. You can go online and call anyone a murderer, rapist, pedophile, and there's very little anyone can do about it. Imagine being on the other side of that, and having someone defame you without any recourse.
Serial really sparked a true crime podcast boom. Why do you think the mainstream really latched onto that show?
I think, at the time, the listener base of podcasts in general was dominated by NPR-style shows. The Apple Store was (and still is) the biggest distributor of podcasts and their ranking algorithm seems to favour those Public Radio-produced shows, so the audience skews very liberal. At its core Serial was about an interracial relationship: a young Muslim American who had been convicted of murdering his Asian girlfriend. Pretty early on in the show, part of the audience had made up its mind that this was a case of racial-profiling, which at the time was one of the biggest political hot-button issues. Early listeners really wanted to enthusiastically talk about how they felt about this case, based on their individual interpretation of each minute detail. When they did, the timing was right.
The popularity of the iPhone had almost reached its full saturation point, so finding the podcast on your smartphone was easy to do, even with little technical know-how. Not to mention, it was a damn good show. It was well paced, with a great host who was easy to listen to, and each episode kept you wanting more. That serialized style of storytelling had been attempted before in podcasting, but never quite so perfectly executed.
I feel Sword and Scale equally crafts such narratives. For example, The Craigslist Killer episode where you don't give all the info thus making the audience wonder just where the hell we are going here. How have you found your storytelling abilities have grown over the course of the first few seasons?
Well, in terms of our storytelling we often get criticized for letting clips play out and tell the story. This is a great example of why not all criticism is constructive, because that's the very aspect that the vast majority of our audience loves and what sets us apart from every other true crime show. Sure, I could just tell you what happened, crack a few jokes and then chug a beer, but does that suit the story better than to let you hear what actually happened as if you were there? The raw audio allows the listener to make up their own minds, without the personal biases of the host. The host's job is only to fill in the missing gaps between audio, so that the pace of the story flows easily and effortlessly for the listener. I don't think we've really done anything different since episode 1, however some stories need a little more narration than others.
You cover a lot of downright freaky material. I imagine this has to have some kind of effect on you from time to time?
I grew up in Florida. I've never had a very high opinion of human beings and what makes us all tick, so nothing on the show has really surprised me much. There have been individual stories that have made me a bit emotional while I'm working on them, especially stories about innocent children who become the plaything of a sick and disgusting individual. Overall, though, I think it helps to hear these stories. There have been times when I have found myself in the midst of a heated argument, and the memory of one of these stories pops into my head. The horrible ending they usually have is not something I want to relive personally, so I instantly back down and cool off.
What has been the most difficult thing for you in developing this show?
The most difficult thing, which has nothing to do with the show itself, has been to hire and manage the right staff. Since the early days, when I was doing everything myself, we've been able to hire several writer/producers and several engineers to be able to consistently produce content. Training them to get the essence and subtle nuances of the show just right has been necessary but challenging, because it puts me back in that non-creative management role that I find so incredibly soul-draining.
The most rewarding?
That's easy. The fans. Their overwhelming support is something I don't ever want to forsake.
Is there any crime you've covered or otherwise that you are hoping to see solved in your lifetime and why?
Yes. I want them to find Johnny Gosch.
Finally, what can you share about the coming Sword and Scale television show?
Nice try, but no I can't say anything about it just yet other than that it's coming. Stay tuned!